Read the Transcript for Grieving a Co-worker


Coach Yu – EP29: Grieving a Co-worker



I have a new topic that you guys have never heard before. The story you haven’t heard, and I hope it has value for you guys, and I’ll tell a bit of it and then I’d encourage some feedback at the end and see what have you guys done maybe in your entrepreneurial struggle, some of the unexpected ups and downs.

So we’re here in the Coach Yu show part of Startup Club and Jeffrey is my co-host. He’s amazing. He’s the CMO and he’s a man of many skills, and so glad to have Jeff. Thank you, Dennis. Clearly my reputation exceeds myself. So this room is recorded so you can play the replay if you like. And it’s turned into articles and related content in www.Startup.Club.

So if you have things to say, feel free, just make sure it’s a value for other people that may be listening or watching. [00:01:00] It’s a devastating thing to have a co-founder die on you. It was my friend, Chris Rummel. He was my best friend and we traveled the world and we built software together. He worked at Lockheed Martin for a bit before we decided we become software entrepreneurs.

This is 25 years ago and he was so good as a pilot and software engineer that he actually trained Muhammad oughta, who was one of the pilots that flew into the twin towers. If you can believe that. And he said, I know that guy, I trained him. He only cared about taking off. He didn’t care about landing.

That was odd, but this guy was such a meticulous engineer that we decided we were going to create a company that would be virtual coaching. And back then you had polar as a heart rate monitor, and it would. Graph what your heart rate was and how far you ran. And we would take this data, download it and put it [00:02:00] into our program that would calculate your fitness level.

Your VO two max, what we thought your base level of fitness was we’d project. Let’s say you ran a 10 K and 39 minutes. We’d project, your marathon split or project your mile PR project. What? Your 80%. Your VO two max would be what your Robux threshold would be. And then as you. You’re a different training runs.

It would adjust your training plan. And we ran this by other athletes in Stanford, by the folks who run the Chicago marathon, who were going to use our software. People like Hal Higdon, a lot of the researchers, not the people at runner’s world, but the people who actually do the research and I scout. The planet for the top athletes that were runners and triathletes and cyclists.

I’m friends with Mike pig, who you guys may know is one of the original iron man people. I consulted with Steve Scott, who was the American record holder in the mile. And I was a [00:03:00] big time runner back then. And I thought, what would it be like to have someone like a Steve Scott in your ear giving you incorrect?

But also saying, Hey, it looks like your body’s a little tired. The last few miles splits that you ran. Weren’t very good. You ought to tomorrow instead of an interval workout, you ought to just take five miles a day, easy jogging at a seven minute pace, or you weren’t able to work out the last three days and you got a marathon in 87 days, then don’t try to run 24 yesterday.

Here’s how we want to adjust. And the system based on what we know about human physiology would make these adjusted. To your diet, to your strength training, to the running that you had. And we built this amazing piece of software. I still have the wireframes. I don’t have the code because when he died, all of that went away and it was so secure and nobody could get into it.

So it’s forever gone, but we had run so many. I think we ran 10 marathons together. We qualified for Boston by running the California international marathon and [00:04:00] under three hours and just did all kinds of crazy things. Part of the reason you guys don’t know this, I went to Yahoo was to give him more software engineering experience because he thought like a lot of us, I’m not good enough.

I can’t be making, world-class software. I need to get more experience. So I said, okay I’ll do this thing at Yahoo. And that way you could also work at Yahoo. And so we did, we both worked at Yahoo and both got a lot of exposure. Even though we learned a lot and that was a great place to be.

Especially 20 years ago, I look back and I think that wasn’t really necessary. We could have just gone full on into building our software, even though having an extra paycheck from Yahoo was nice. We, it was a trade off of not being able to build our software faster. And even still today, you look at Nike and the apple watch and whatnot, they’ve still not done.

A true virtual coaching kind of thing. You have these run mapper, Runkeeper, other sorts of tools, but not incorporating what we know about [00:05:00] physiology. And it was one day it was about 4:00 PM on a, I think a Thursday. And he said, Hey, I’m going to be leaving the office. Now I’ll catch a bit later tonight.

We’re going to have Vietnamese because we’d like to eat at this restaurant in mountain view. If you guys know mountain view, there’s a fall restaurant right off the main street. And little did. I know that conversation we had was the last time I would have ever talked to him because three minutes after he left the Yahoo parking garage on his motorcycle, going down Matilda Boulevard, a few hundred meters down a car swiped into him on his while he was on the motorcycle, he swerved and hit a yield sign that instantly snapped his neck, put him into a coma and he never recovered.

And I to this day, think about how was it my fault. And a lot of people say, no, Dennis, you can’t blame it. Blame yourself because of various reasons. The [00:06:00] reason he was riding that motorcycle was he wanted to sell his car. So I bought his car off of him. He had a VW jet. I gave him 20 grand for it, cause he needed the money for something else.

And I told him, Hey, you don’t have to. If you need the 20 grand, here it is, whatever. I was already making money doing PPC. I was one of the biggest dating affiliates. If you can imagine all the dating sites, I was running ads while I was at Yahoo, I was still, I was running all these ads on the side.

I had so much data. Maybe there’s a conflict of interest there or whatever, but I was making all this money and he said no, I’m ethical. I need to pay you for the 20 grand or, give you this car. So he rode the, my motorcycle instead of driving his car. And I think, If I had just refused a little bit harder saying no, you really liked this Jetta.

This is the nut Jetta. What is the thing? That’s a little red Volkswagen. That’s sporty you really should, you should keep the car. I should’ve pushed a little bit harder, but he insisted, but maybe, if that didn’t happen that day he’d still be alive. And when I go to Silicon valley, I’ll make a pilgrimage to the [00:07:00] spot where the accident happened.

And I remember. I had been there several times. Cause it just, it didn’t really hit me. I thought maybe it was a joke. I thought maybe it’s Elvis or who knows? But I’d go there. And I pick up, I’d find little pieces of his bike shattered in the gutter and it reminded me. And I go back to Portland where his mom is to the rose garden, the place that we would go to all the time.

And it would remind me of what that was like. And I thought I would never do a startup again. Because we had put years into building the software because we did some work during the day at Yahoo, but then in the evening we worked on our software and I wanted to launch it to the world. I was so connected in the world of runners and physiologists and people that talked about running and high school track coaches.

I came from one of the top programs and athletics palace high school. The women’s the nation’s top women’s cross-country team, one of the top men’s cross-country teams. And I thought, you know what, I’ll just be an employee at [00:08:00] Yahoo and I’ve given it my one shot. And I thought I would never recover from that.

And I’m curious, have you guys been through this kind of situation where you hit some kind of barrier? It doesn’t have to be a co-founder dying in a motorcycle accident, but some situation that at first looks like a disaster. But then later opens up these other doors in ways that you have never imagined.

And then the thrill of entrepreneurship of going up and down. What have you learned? What have you experienced? What encouragement do you have for other people? Because I look at where things are today, 20 years ago, and I can see the arc of my life. Just like you can see the arc of your life and the amazing other people that we get to work with.

And the training that was so instead of just the, the training for athletes, because back then, I’m early twenties. I’m I feel invincible. I think I know everything. And I think that, I can run forever and never get old and sick. And now it’s I’m 47. I’m thinking, oh my [00:09:00] goodness.

Mumbles 50, holy moly. I wake up the morning after even just walking up the stairs and I have an ache, I see people they pull a tendon just from standing up or something and not doing some crazy sort of thing. So reminds me of my mortality. But instead of the training on athletics, we have training on digital marketing.

We have training with other people who are awesome entrepreneurs. And I see how I ended up in a place that I think would have been similar and everything I believe had. For you instead of to you and things that look bad, if you can reframe it, you realize that there is a lesson in that. And there’s something that you can’t see ahead.

A friend of mine told a story of when this, these people are on a train and the train is going down the tracks and it’s still. And everyone’s like, why are we stopped here? We’re, we’re late. We need to hurry up. Why are we stopped at the signal here? And little did they know is because something else was happening up the track and the engineers, knew, [00:10:00] but the passengers didn’t.

And I feel that we’re all trained on a track where sometimes, the track of head is busy or we’re taking the long rate way because the path we would’ve been on is, was dangerous and would have been. W we avoided something that would have been catastrophic, but I bring this story up, this personal story that I had to share with you, that things that appear tragic at the time with the passage of time, everything becomes doable.

Everything in the context of time, you realize you’re a blip on this. And there are so many other people. There’s so many other opportunities that you might grieve a co-founder you might grieve a business. You might grieve a project that didn’t work out, but there’s always another one you never think at the time that there is, but there always is another one.

So I want to open up and see what do you guys think? What inspires you, Dennis? When I read the topic for tonight and thought about what you were going [00:11:00] to share. It didn’t even occur to me. But as you told you a story, I realized and remembered that I actually had a remarkably similar experience, including involving a motorcycle.

This goes back probably close to 15 years ago. I had this idea for an online business that I spot and still think was a really. Concept. And I had noodled with it and took it as far as I could go, not being a programmer. And I did some proof of concept stuff, and I had a video explaining it and some really neat stuff.

And I ended up partnering with a friend of mine who has said he knew this genius kid who was a brilliant coder, brilliant developer. And let’s bring him in and see if we can bring this project to life. So we did. And the three of us, created a business, created a partnership and started working on this project with this really brilliant young kid.

He was 20 years old at the time. Just, it was an amazing coder. It just was bringing this idea that I had been playing with for a few years. He was literally [00:12:00] bringing it to life and it was amazing and he was doing a great job. And he rode a motorcycle. Always came, showed up at the office, riding his motorcycle, loved it, always wear a helmet, but he was careful.

And he we hadn’t launched yet and he was driving his motorcycle in Boca, Raton, 20 years old. And it’s very similar to the story you shared. Someone hit him. He went flying and even though he had a helmet on and a jacket and all the gear, he still was pretty much killed instantly. And it it destroyed my friend more than me even.

Cause he had worked with him and knew him for many years since he was a younger kid. But it destroyed me and it destroyed that project. Like I, even though he was 90% done and I probably could have finished it up and launched that business. I just, I couldn’t go back to it. I couldn’t look at it.

I couldn’t think about it. And I also stopped riding motorcycles. I had a motorcycle license. I had a, not a motorcycle, but I had a maxi scooter at the time, a 500 CC [00:13:00] Italian, a prettiest scooter that I used to ride on the highway. And I couldn’t even look at it or touch it or ride it. And to be honest I never wrote it again.

I just, it made me think too much of him and what had happened and I stopped writing eventually sold it and have not personally written a motorcycle since. So it was remarkable as you’re telling your story, all this came back to me and I hadn’t thought about it. I think about it every year on his birthday, but Yeah, so it didn’t kill my entrepreneurial spirit, but it certainly killed that particular project.

I just, even to this day, I don’t want to think about it, even though I love the project. Cause it just makes, it’s just too sad. Yeah. So thanks for making me remember that, but I think to your point, we wouldn’t be here. And clubhouse talking together. If we hadn’t had the experiences, we’ve had everything pushes us forward and pushes us on the path we’re on.

And we do learn and grow from things, even things that are tragic and sad or fail.[00:14:00] 

Incredible. It makes us who we are. Jeffrey. What was your friend’s name? There’s 20.

Yeah. Now I’m going to embarrass myself and say, I’m having an aged brain for it. And cause I just, cause you repressed the memory, you don’t yeah. Your brain is trying to protect itself because it doesn’t want to remember that. It’s like I still get every year, once a year, I get a notice on Facebook cause they never get rid of that stuff that it’s his birthday.

And then I got to stop what I’m doing and think about it. But it was definitely true. That’s why? Whenever I see a friend with a motorcycle, I tell them, dude, you need to get rid of that motorcycle. I don’t know. I know how to drive. It’s the other people that are bad drivers. You should look at my friend, Chris, and what happened to him.

And that’s you never see the old motor, so you never see the old guys on the crush rockets. There’s the reason for that. I’d love to hear the stories that you guys have. Maybe something that Jeffrey I shared inspired you and your journey, and you have something [00:15:00] that’s encouraging for other people that are on the path of entrepreneurship, which is really hard.

I don’t think people are willing to acknowledge how hard entrepreneurship is. We’re here in clubhouse in each of us, our next to our phones and we’re listening and maybe participating, but all of us, we seek to be around other people that are going through similar situations so that we don’t feel like we’re by ourselves having to tackle this whole beast.

And I think having a co-founder is absolutely critical in any kind of company. I don’t believe in Elon Musk in the Superman. And you know that the idea of this hero that does everything, I think forever. Leader, there is a great spouse, there’s a great husband or wife that helps make that kind of stuff happen.

And when you see there’s a friend of mine who built a company that just traded on wall street based on informational signals. And he looked at the divorces. So he would trade on a stock if the CEO was having marital problems or if the kids were [00:16:00] in trouble or whatever. And he actually made money in the stock.

Because he knew that would impact the company’s performance. If you think about it, it makes sense. So I think a lot of entrepreneurs neglect their emotional health because they’re so focused on the detail or they feel it’s embarrassing to admit that something happened or that they’re less than perfect, or to share some kind of sensitive piece of information when they’re in a busy conference call, that kind of thing.

So I thought I would share my story. And as a way to say, Hey, it’s. It’s okay. And in today’s world to be who you are in this new space we had our coaching call three hours ago. We have a weekly paid coaching group and one of our men, we have a lot of doctors, for some reason, one of them was afraid to share her personal life.

Because as a doctor she’s gotten the white lab coat kind of thing, they said, no, you absolutely should. You should let people know that you like doughnut. Even though it’s not good for you. You should tell them about where you live. You [00:17:00] should do these kinds of things to humanize yourself. And I think that’s the biggest thing that’s missing among founders and entrepreneurs that are trying to grow their business.

That could be coaches, consultants, experts, doctors, whatever they are. They’re so focused on their craft that no one really knows who they are. And this. This doctor from earlier today, she specializes in things like gut health and stress. And I said, you know of the executives that you coach cause that’s her client base is, 40 plus female executives.

Can they really tell which doctor knows the most about gut health? This, you versus some other doctor? She said, no, not really. Okay. Then why do, why would they choose you? They choose me because of referrals and my relationships and who I serve. And I said, exactly. So the more you tell your story, the more people can see who your persona is, that when you’re treating these executive women are dealing with a different set of situations than some average person who, whatever [00:18:00] their situation is.

And so you’ve got to let yourself resonate by telling those stories. What do you guys think? I’d love to hear your feedback. Go ahead and hit the hand, raise button in the bottom. And Dennis, just to bring my memory back, it was rough Rafael, but we called him rough. It was my friends and you’re right.

I kinda did just block it out, but now it’s all coming back. Our IP for Raphael. Yep. But we learned from all of our experiences and the one thing. That when you lose someone, under any circumstances is always a reminder is how precious every moment that it is.

And I think for entrepreneurs, that’s such an important thing to remember because we put so much into. The businesses we start, we put almost everything else in our life on hold and it’s important that, of course, you’ve got to put the work in. It’s hard to launch a business. It’s hard to bring a job to fruition, but you sure as hell better enjoy the [00:19:00] journey and enjoy what you’re doing, because you don’t know when it’s going to stop.

You don’t know when it’s going to be. And you don’t want to look back and say, gosh, I missed all these opportunities while I was trying to build this business. You want to make sure you’re building this business and living and enjoying your life. And isn’t that a hard balance.

I think about all the things that I want to do. And of course, when you talk to entrepreneurs on their death bed, they, you never hear them say, man, I wish I spent another hour in the office. I really regret not doing. I found a shortcut to both of those. As I taught this class this morning at the it’s a social media professor’s group, there’s a couple of thousand professors it’s headed by Dr.

Karen Freberg. Who’s got the book on social media for professors, at least that they teach in their schools. And this morning we were teaching. Tik TOK. So we’re teaching all of these professors about tick talk and what is it and the ads and how they can teach their kids. Even though the kids know more about Tik TOK.

So they think, at least not on the [00:20:00] business side, they don’t know. And we were talking about how at the big conference we’re going to be at in June, and then these training sessions, how these teachers, they want to be able to give back and help their kids there. A lot of these universities are starting students.

Organizations, these agencies. I absolutely love. It’s fantastic. Like Dr. Karen Sutherland at the university of the sunshine coast, she’s got hundreds of these students that are adopting local businesses and, applying our training dollar a day, one minute video to thrive in their agents. And I said, a lot of students on social media are disillusioned with the education system and want to say it’s a scam and that anyone can just get on the social media and start being a business person.

They don’t need to know anything and you don’t need to go to four years of school or anything like that. And I said, this right here, what we’re teaching is exactly what these kids don’t know. And so if they want to make money as influence. Some of my friends, they have 2 million, 5 million followers on Tik TOK and whatnot.

And they’re driving [00:21:00] Uber because they’re broke. So we’re teaching these professors how to blend practical, real world. Hands-on, adopt local businesses and start an agency while you’re in school, under the auspices of the school while they’re struggling. Education and learning how to communicate and work in groups and write effective proposals and that kind of stuff.

And I think what a cool way where for me, at least I’m doing something that can make me a little bit of money, not a ton, but I’m also doing something that I really love. So I’m not having sacrifice one or the other. It’s not oh, I can’t wait until Friday because the, during the, Monday to Friday, Like wasting my time, waiting for the weekend to get a paycheck and they get drunk and then, have to go to work on Monday.

Like I don’t even have that. I’ve been spending the last year, basically hanging out with people that I like, whether it has business or not, but it seems like a lot of them have a cool business ankle. I was in Utah [00:22:00] last week with John Jonas. Who’s the founder of online jobs that. He has, Hey Jeffrey, you know how many VAs he has virtual assistants.

He has on his site. Now, I think you’ve mentioned it before, but it was a huge number. I believe it’s in the thousands. I thought it was 1.5. I thought it was like 1.2 or 1.5 million. It’s 2 million. Wow. Not to say we need to boast about who has the most money or the biggest audiences, but this guy has quietly grown the largest virtual assistance site on the.

He’s got 2 million digital marketing people on his jaw on his online jobs pH site. And I hung out with them for a few days and we were making videos. And I, even if we didn’t have projects where we’re doing stuff together, to be able to sell courses and train up VA’s and we have all these courses, you can train up your VA to do video editing or graphics or blogging or using different tools like D script or like the overdub feature or Jarvis or WordPress.

So even if we weren’t doing that, I just [00:23:00] wanted to hang out with this guy because I think he’s really cool. He only works maybe 10 hours a week. He’s got five kids. He’s his number one priority is his family. It’s just, I just love seeing that, but then he’s very choosy about who he hangs out with.

So it’s a, it’s an honor to spend time with him. And I learned from people like this and at the same time, I’m able to make money, which is cool. Cause we have all these courses that we’re sharing revenue. So that’s the kind of stuff where I don’t think it has to be an either or, and thus, I guess you’re not supposed to mix business with pleasure, but what I found just from hanging out with people who were really successful, that’s what they do all the time.

Like when I was with Dr. Lyons, who’s the founder of cocoon, the whole oxygen water, which is a whole another topic to talk about. I got to hang out with the queen in Malaysia. I got to hang out with these other people who are just really cool. And it just it’s because they had health problems and they, so they had to do the cocoon oxygen treatment.

So Dr. Lyons is able to make money because he [00:24:00] invented this technology for these oxygen baths, but we’re also hanging out with really cool people. So these are friends and their business colleagues, and it’s not like one or the other. It’s just blended. And I was with Nevine Jane. He’s the billionaire guy, right?

Who’s got Viome and he’s mining the moon. He’s got the license to send rockets to the moon and mine it and all that kind of stuff. And I asked him, Hey, so how do you balance all the different things that you have? You nine. You started that all went to a billion dollars plus, and you have two wonderful kids that are doing amazing things.

And you’re out doing the speaking circuit and doing stuff with your non-profits and all this, and hanging out with Richard Branson and, playing him in tennis or whatever. How are you balancing all of this? And he said to me, Dennis, there is no balance. There is no such thing as work-life balance.

Even though he’s already made his money. He’s working hard. And he ever has. He doesn’t get as much sleep as he should. But he said the illusion of balance is that at any point [00:25:00] in time, something is a priority, right? Your daughter’s sick. Okay. You got to cancel all your meetings, your daughter’s sick, or this one thing happened.

We have to go address this emergency or whatever it is. Whatever’s the latest priority takes the spot that day. But overall, over time, things are imbalanced. But at instantaneously at any point in time, there’s something that’s the priority. And I just thought that was fast. Yeah, Dennis I actually, I know Nevine, I, once almost came very close to selling a company of mine, to him back at the info space days.

And ran into him at a conference years later. But that’s another story for another time, but I think more than ever, there is no Work-life balance it’s life, especially now with people working remotely, working from home, the lines have blurred and everything bends together. And that started to happen with mobile.

When all of a sudden, even in the early days of the first rim Blackberry page. When all of a sudden, I could be in the park with my kids on the weekend and texting emails back and forth to people from work on this [00:26:00] little pager thing, all of a sudden the lines blurred and everything changed.

That’s the world we live in. So you need to build a life that works for you. That includes, your source of income and your family and the things that you enjoy and get pleasure from. The one thing I will say, Dennis, that I was thinking of just based on going back to the losses. And losing a partner is one, one less.

That we can learn from that, not to do with someone passing away necessarily, but when you’re building your business and building your startup, don’t have a single point of failure. Like you mentioned that when Chris passed, you didn’t have access to all the code, all the great stuff you were working on.

And as I think about it, when Ralph passed I’m in the same boat, I actually, if I wanted to resurrect that business, I have everything he built, but I have no idea. You know how to get to the source code and all the stuff that he used to create it. So as you’re building your business, it’s important, not that you are expecting anyone to pass away tragically, but you don’t want to, you want to build your business in a way where if [00:27:00] someone does get hit by a truck, in the proverbial phrase, or get hit by a bus that the business can still survive.

So that’s an important consideration that this conversation made me think of. Amen. And I wish he had told me that a long time ago in the airline industry, there’s a whole group that’s called Orr, which I think is the smartest department in any major department it’s called or any major corporation called operations research.

And the biggest thing we worked on at American airlines way back. It was called Oso, which is off schedule operations. So what happens if a pilot is sick or there’s a weather pattern, or we have a leakage or we have, the instrumentation malfunctions or something like that, the plane still lands that it might take off a little bit late, but there’s all kinds of backup systems.

So the key to Oso there’s a strike or something happy fuel, pure prices go up is that we have. Graceful failure. So graceful failure means if something bad happens, there’s a backup. So there’s [00:28:00] backup instrumentation. There’s a backup avionics. There is a backup process. If your primary airport isn’t serviceable, you move to a, a secondary airport, right?

When you fly, these the 7 87 or seven 30 sevens can fly so far, the FAA has a rule where you have to be able to fly to your destiny. And have enough fuel to fly for, I think another hour and a half and circle that other destination for some amount of another hour and a half. So even though technically a 7 37 can fly from New York, LaGuardia to London Heathrow, they don’t do that because it can’t fly that extra amount.

So the idea of graceful failure is if something bad happens, you already have a backup plan. So if a co-founder or one of your key employees. They’re sick or they’re incapacitated or what, or you’re just scaling so fast that you need to have multiple people who know how to do that role. Then you’re taking care of.

So my friend Ali Awad, who you’ve seen in these rooms, he says [00:29:00] always have at least two people who can do the function, even if there’s only enough work just for that one person or even part-time. And I found that to be huge is having the backup to plus nobody can hold you hostage. If you have just one engineer, how do you really know?

You’re a fat man getting a shoe? You don’t really know. So when you have at least two people who can do that role, there’s a level of integrity. And I don’t want to say honesty, but just knowing that someone else can step in and help if you need it. And that forces you to have the discipline, to have your systems documented so that the company can function without you, which is the whole point of having a business to be able to replace yourself, right?

Like Jeffrey, what would happen if for some reason, you needed to take care of some situation and you could. As the CMO of for 90 days, what would happen? Oh, I’d be disappointed, but the company would survive. So I’d ask you to do that. Just like Jeffrey has, he’s got backups and you don’t have to be [00:30:00] a huge company to have the infrastructure to be able to do that.

It can just be, it could be you consulting. It could be you with the side project. You want to think of. What is it that you do? Can you document the process and document it so well, someone else can do it for you. If you decide that you don’t feel like doing that anymore. It can still continue to produce residual income for you.

So I hope you guys enjoyed this. I hope you found it valuable. I’d love to hear stories that you have to share, and maybe you’re reading this on Reach out, let us know your feedback. We’re always learning from everyone else and learning whatever topics you guys care about. Yeah, I think Dennis was we’re alerting some topics encourage more engagement from the audience and some talk topics, people sit back and listen.

And I hope in either case you’re getting value from these discussions, I certainly do. And always look forward to the coach. You show. I always come away with it inspired and learning. And even tonight, I’m going to be thinking about. About RAF. I’m going to be thinking a lot about that project. Things I [00:31:00] could have done differently back then and things I’ll do differently going forward.

So it was a good discussion. Thank you, Dennis. And thank you everyone. Thank you everybody. Have a good evening. Take care and remember go to startup dot clubs and up for our mailing list to be kept informed of everything going on here on startup club in clubhouse. Thanks everyone. We’ll see you next week.

Next Thursday. 5:00 PM Pacific and 8:00 PM. Eastern for another edition of the coach you show. Thanks everyone. Thank you, Jeffrey.


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