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Serial Entrepreneur Club – EP74: Collaborative Podcasting to Grow Your Brand


You’re listening to the Serial Entrepreneur Club hour and also now a podcast. That’s right. We put, uh, this show into a podcast, uh, a few weeks back, and now you can listen up to about 75 episodes. Andrew, welcome to clubhouse and today’s topic. Jeff. Welcome. Thanks Colin. So I have a confession to make, okay.

Today, the topics all about podcasts, and we’re gonna be talking about how startups can benefit by launching their own podcast or being a guest speaker. And again, the confession I have is that, uh, I’m actually writing a book called start scale, exit repeat, and I’ll be [00:01:00] using Andrew’s service. To, uh, get bookings for the book before we launch.

And the second motivation I, we have here, Jeff and Michele and myself is that we run as, you know, Startup Club. And this show is now a podcast. So we’re trying to figure out ways we can promote this podcast and get more amplification for the message that we’re talking about when it comes to startups.

This show Serial Entrepreneur Club is all about figuring out the code. What is it that serial entrepreneurs do over and over again, to start scale, exit and repeat. And I know Andrew, Michele’s got a lot of questions, so I’m gonna pass it to her to moderate. First a huge welcome to Andrew. Um, you know, I think let’s, let’s have Andrew tell us a little bit about himself.

Andrew is a very popular blogger, actually, both him [00:02:00] and his wife are in the respective fields. So I’d love to hear a little bit about you, Andrew. Um, for the, for all of our members here, and then we can get right into some of these questions and get some people up here on stage so that they can also benefit from your knowledge over to you.

Andrew. Thanks, Michele. Um, yeah, honored to be here and talk about podcasting. You know, my background kind of led me into podcast. Uh, you know, Colin, Jeff, Michele, we kind of all know each other from some background in domain name and domain name entrepreneurship. I started a blog about domain names.

Think of it kind of like a, a trait publication for the domain name industry back in 2005 called domain name wire. And it is been a blog ever since then still write it to today. Um, but about, let’s see, I guess in around 2014, I started looking around and thinking, Hey, um, you know, I wanna have some more in depth conversations [00:03:00] with people.

You know, my blog posts are fairly short, so I started a podcast that is now actually, I just, uh, just sent to my editor episode number 404. So it’s been going on ever since 2014. So I’m big into domains. I’m big into blogging and I I’m big into podcasting as well. So that podcast about domain names led me into, uh, well, it ran into an issue.

So after about the first 50 episodes of that show after I’d interviewed a lot of people, I knew that could talk about domain names. I was really running short on potential guests. You know, I kind of tapped my Rolodex out and I looked around for a service that would help me find, find guests for my show, had difficulty finding it.

So I went ahead and created one. So now I spend a lot of my time on that service, as well as writing the blog and producing my podcast about domain names. Awesome. And I think you’ve had notable articles [00:04:00] and some very ho high profile, um, Newspapers and magazines as well. And, um, I know, I think I just saw you just received another award, so we’re really happy to have you here.

Oh, thanks Michele. Thank you. All right. So we’re just gonna start diving into it. Um, start raising your hand if you’re in the audience and you’re interested in learning how you can leverage a podcast to grow your business, or if you’re interested in like starting your own podcast. So I think we’ll just jump into it.

So one of the first questions was. About, you know, we, we were kind of talking about this today. There’s really two sides of it, right? Like you could be a guest on podcast, or of course you could start your own podcast, but I think, uh, let’s first look at being a guess on podcast. So what are the suggestions and tips that you would give us about [00:05:00] growing our own brand or growing our startup, being a guest speaker on podcasts?

Like where, where do we even start? How do we reach the right people? Yeah. So I, I think to take a step back, you know, why would as a startup owner, why would you wanna be a guest on audience and, uh, on podcasts? And as you mentioned, it’s all about growing your audience, right? Podcasts. Think of it kind of like going on a, for a radio interview or a TV.

  1. It’s a great way to get in front of people that are interested in what you’re talking about. And as long as you do it effectively, it can work really well. As far as getting new people to either buy your product or service, or even, you know, follow you on social media, that sort of thing. And so it’s a great media for that.

I think, uh, you know, I, I even hear a lot of entrepreneurs say that it’s great for SEO too, because then people are linking, you know, they do this interview with you and then they link to your site and it, uh, ran Fishkin. Who’s a serial entrepreneur, [00:06:00] um, who founded Maz and now has a, another, uh, startup. He likes podcasting as well for, for being a guest.

But to get to your question, as far as, how do you kind of get started? There, there are a few things that I, I suggest, right? So one is to think about podcast, to be a guest. That are a good fit for what you want to talk about. A lot of times I see people focusing on getting on big shows, which are not only difficult to get on, but it might not be as effective.

You know, I personally rather speak to an audience of a couple hundred people that care what I talk about than 10,000 or 20,000, that really don’t care. Right. So I would focus on finding podcasts that are a good fit, uh, for what you want to talk about. And I’d also say that you need to do a little bit of, uh, preparation from a technical standpoint before you go on podcasts.

And that, that means basically get a decent microphone. Right? So, uh, you don’t [00:07:00] wanna be talking into your laptop or into your cell phone when you’re doing an actual podcast. Because you won’t sound that good. Right? And so I tell people, you don’t need to spend a lot of money. Maybe it’s even under a hundred dollars, but find a good dynamic microphone, uh, that will plug in.

You can just get a USB microphone, it can plug into your laptop. But the key is to get a dynamic microphone as opposed to a condenser, cuz it does a lot better job of just picking up your. Right now I’m pick talking into a dynamic microphone. I’m plugged into my phone. And if I, you know, if there was a lawnmower going on outside or my air conditioning event goes on, you, you really won’t hear it.

Um, whereas if you’re on a condenser microphone, you’ll, you’ll pick up a lot of that. So you also need to find a quiet place around your home. A walkin clothing closet is great for that. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean that, that’s kind of a high level, what you wanna do, but then you also want to think about what the message is you want get across.

And I encourage people to go on shows, thinking, how can I [00:08:00] add value to this audience? So, yes, at the end of the day, you want them to do something right? You want them to, to follow you. You want them to visit your website, maybe buy a product or service, but if you go into it with that attitude, it could backfire.

You want to go into it with how can I educate or entertain this audience. And that way you’ll get better results overall, all. Yeah. Positioning yourself as an expert in your industry and getting yourself onto certain podcasts. I think that’s a, a winning move, a winning strategy for a startup that wants to gain sort of, uh, a reputation in a particular industry.

Is that correct? I know there’s different ways of doing that. Like, you know, writing articles, getting interviewed on blogs, um, going into podcast and let’s just look back at history here. Right? You had, uh, myself and Jeff on your podcast. A number of times when we were trying to [00:09:00], uh, because we wanted to share what we knew and how your listeners might benefit from that product.

That’s right. I mean, it’s, it’s a perfect example. And, and Jeff came on to talk about his book as well. Um, you know, I can give you an example of someone who uses podcast, Who’s got kind of a, a unique background. He, he sells antiques. He has a big antique company in Chicago and he is a, uh, he’s a comedian as well.

Or he used to be in a standup troop. And, um, he, he told me, you know, he went on this one show and he was really, he was hesitant to go on it, cuz it didn’t seem like a, a great fit. It didn’t seem very, um, maybe not the biggest show. And he said he sold something like 70 books from that one appearance and he was really surprised about it.

And he went on that show and he entertained the audience. Right. And he talked about his expertise. So very [00:10:00] similar thing to what you Colin have done. What Jeff has done. Michele has even been on the show. Um, on, on my show, just talking about your product or service in a way that, um, you know, hopefully you get some new customers from it, but you’re also educating, right?

You’re talking about something that really interests them. So I can walk you through an example of how a podcaster not only gained a new listener in me, but then Naga sold, sold some books to me. So I was listening to my first million, which is a, a pretty large and popular podcast. And they had a guest on there who runs the MicroCon conferences.

And he also has a podcast called startups for the rest of us. And he did a great job during that show of educating and talking about, you know, small startups, um, bootstrap startups. And it was really interesting to me. And at the end of the show, he said, Hey, you know, if, if you liked what we talked about today, you’ll probably like my podcast startups for the rest of us.

So I went and I [00:11:00] subscribed to that podcast. And the first thing I listened to. Was an author talking about, uh, the jobs to be done methodology. I bought his book. And then in each of those podcasts, the guy talked about his conference, micro comp. I’m actually going to one, uh, a miniature one that they’re having with ran Fishkin next week in Seattle.

And I signed up, I even paid a couple hundred dollars to join a, a mastermind service he had. So that sort of, you can kind of see how it can snowball from just you’re giving great educational content to all of a sudden you have someone who’s a new fan and a new customer. Yeah. We have a, a business partner who’s trying to set up a, a clubhouse session on Startup Club.

Uh, that’s also gonna be a podcast about vacation rentals and they manage vacation rentals and they’re looking at, you know, how do we do this? And they thought one of the best ideas to do it was to set up a room in clubhouse, a session [00:12:00] like Serial Entrepreneur Club, like the one we’re doing right now.

And then have that, uh, propagate into the podcast network, um, because you also have a benefit of a live audience, you know, of people in the audience, and it’s very interactive and it’s a little bit more, I don’t know, authentic. Uh, are you, we seeing, uh, I know that Twitter spaces was doing something similar.

Are we starting to see others sort of use these audio, social audio apps to create podcasts? Yeah, I, I think it’s an interesting way to do it. And I’ve done that on my show on a, on a Twitter space with a, an attorney. So people could come in and ask him specific questions. I record on almost all my podcasts.

Just one-on-one one right with one guest. But I like this concept because again, you can get people to raise their hand, come up and ask questions. So it’s not just you, right? It, it does get more interactive. And, uh, I know these at first these services didn’t really have a recording feature. [00:13:00] Twitter now has one as well, but it’s kind of clunky.

You kinda have to download all your data. Um, I use actually, I’m kind of plugged my phone right now is plugged into what’s called a zoom recorder, no association with the, um, uh, the, the video conferencing service, but it’s called a pod track P four by a company called zoom. And this allows me to record these shows even, you know, direct, right?

So it gets a better sound quality. It’s actually recording my voice right now as I speak into it and it, and it makes it a lot easier. So I think it’s a great concept and a, a great way to easily start podcasting. Right? So maybe you have a popular room already on clubhouse or a lot of followers on Twitter and you use Twitter spaces.

It’s a great way to get started. And I certainly think we’ll see more podcasts operating this way.

And it provides, I mean, I think one of the advantages to Andrew, it [00:14:00] provides a recording platform that, um, many, many starting podcasters may not have set up yet or may not know how to do it yet. So, um, these platforms like clubhouse just provide an easy way to, to get started that way. Yeah. I, I agree. You know, there, there’s a bit of a learning curve to, especially starting your own podcast.

There’s equipment you need to get, I mentioned a microphone for being a guest. Obviously you need to do that as a host, but you also need to set up a podcast hosting account. Need to figure out how to edit shows. Um, there’s a bit of work that goes into it and yeah. And how do you record the shows?

Thankfully now there are some great platforms out there, like, uh, squad that will help you that are designed specifically for recording podcasts between you and, and a guest. But yeah, I, I think I, I really like the idea of clubhouse or Twitter spaces as a platform for recording a podcast. And it also helps if maybe you don’t, maybe you’re not a hundred percent comfortable being that [00:15:00] interviewer yet.

You’re kind of learning those skills. Um, so it helps to have other people coming in and asking the questions and just that interactivity as well. Right. Andrew, I’ve got a, I’m sorry, I’ve got a quick question for you with podcast guests in, in particular, you know, really it’s a service on both sides of defense, meaning that it’s extremely valuable for podcast hosts, and it’s extremely valuable for people who want to be guests.

Which do you think, who do you think is getting the greatest benefit out of your platform? The, the people hosting shows or the, the people who are trying to become guests on shows? Yeah, I, I think they both are. And, and the, the interesting thing too, is that a lot of podcasters are also guests on shows.

And I, I firmly believe that the number one way to grow your own, uh, uh, the audience of your podcast is to be a guest on other shows because. A hundred percent of people listening to podcasts are podcast listeners, right? By definition, where’s other ways of marketing a show, whether it be social media, you know, [00:16:00] only a small percentage of those people.

Maybe a quarter of them say, listen to, to podcasts. So I think it’s a great way to grow your own show. We don’t charge podcasters, anything for using podcast So they obviously get a lot of value when we feature a show in our newsletter, it’s common for them to get a hundred people raising their hand saying, I want to be a guest on that show, but you know, guests as well, right?

The, the guests, the ones that have really dialed it in, right. And have their message down and have their approach down, get, get a lot of value. Uh, a lot of podcasters aren’t really making money from their show, right? They’re they’re doing it for similar reasons. Maybe I assume that the three of you and, and part of the goal behind Startup Club is to kind of raise your influence amongst entrepreneurs.

Right? So there’s value there. Um, but you’re not making money directly from it. Right. Whereas experts sometimes can, whether they’re selling a book, they’re getting people interested in, in what they do. Uh, shoot. I mean, this is a perfect example. I’m on this show right [00:17:00] now. Not only to, because I, I want to educate people about being podcasters or being a guest on a show, but you know, hopefully some of the people listening will come sign up for the free service and, and check it out.

And maybe a few of them over time will, will turn into pay customers. Right? So there’s a lot of value there to, to being a guest on shows. And, and most of our users, even our guests use the service for free. We have 38,000 people on the service and only about a thousand of them are paid. Right. And so I, I think everyone’s getting a lot of value out of it.

And, and the nice thing there is that it is kind of a win-win for both the podcaster and the guest on the show when they have a good guest expert on the show, you. Excellent. All right. We have an audience member here, Billy. It looks like I just took a peek at your profile that you are heavily, um, involved in creating content and producing.

So we’re, we’re very [00:18:00] interested to know your comments and your questions. Well, uh, first of all, thank you for the invite up. Um, I don’t know who invited me, but appreciate you. Appreciate you having me. And yeah, I’m a podcaster live streamer, Amazon creator list of the list goes on. I don’t know, as a, you know, as somebody who is making a living from content creation, uh, I don’t know.

There’s just one stream. So I like to set up multiple ones, but love, love the conversation. I just came in to, to hang out and listen and learn and was invited up. So thanks for the thanks for the opportunity. And yeah, I, I love podcasting changed my life and allow me to. To, to do a lot of cool stuff. So I really appreciate the, the space and, and preaching the good news of gospel.

Podcasting. What is, uh, what is your podcast, Billy? So I have a couple different ones. Um, my kind of breadwinner, if you will, is, uh, fisherman’s post podcast, it’s a saltwater fishing show [00:19:00] focused on saltwater fishing on the coast of North Carolina. And so we’ve been doing that one for, I think we just dropped episode 1 26, so it was kind of a pandemic show.

And, uh, and then we, before that, I, I had another saltwater show. I built it up, I sold it and then did the second one as a collaboration project. And we’ve been Mon monetized since episode number five, uh, through sponsorship deals and then just launched a membership group of got like 250 plus people in that.

So yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re cruising along and then I have a creating daily show. Um, which was that when I was in Puerto Rico, a daily live stream show that I repurposed to podcast, um, I’m not focused on that as much anymore cuz I’m, I’m doing a lot of stuff with the, on the Amazon live creator platform.

So little bit of a transition, but yeah man, that’s, that’s kind of my, my little content creation world in a nutshell. Yeah. So, so I really like, [00:20:00] so you mentioned you have sponsorships on the podcast, which is great. You have a membership program, so you’re making money that way. A, another thing. So a lot of podcasters start with the sponsorship model and they have trouble doing it.

Right. Cuz they can’t grow a big enough audience. You know, they say, oh, I’m gonna be the next Joe Rogan. And I’m gonna have millions of listeners and sell ads against it. Whereas you have a very niche show. Right. And you’ve found a way to make that work. Another reason to, to host a podcast is the, the people you’ll meet.

Right. So I host a podcast about domain names and it helps me have conversations with people that might otherwise not, you know, want to give me a lot of time. Right. And so one reason that a lot of people host a podcast is to create new relationships in their industry. Um, I think was Michele earlier talking about.

Uh, a vacation rental. Well, I don’t recall who it was, but talking about, you know, vacation rental on, on clubhouse, um, turning that into a podcast. Well, think about it. If you [00:21:00] maybe provide services to vacation rental homeowner, wouldn’t it be great to have vacation rental home owners as guests on a show so that you can, you know, not only can they tell their story, but then that’s one more person who knows about your company, right.

As the host. Um, so there’s a lot of value in that as well. When I think about salt, water fishing, um, in a particular part of the country, some other ways that, that you could get value from that, right. As let’s see you owned a, a chartering company or something like that. And so having, not only people that are interested in that, but are in that ecosystem on the show as well.

Yeah. I have another friend, uh, named norm Ferra who has a podcast called lunch with norm and a rise of the micro brands. It’s a podcast about. Amazon and eCommerce websites. It’s a very, it’s a particular niche and he does about 5,000 a month in sponsorship, but he says he makes [00:22:00] most of his money because again, he’s established himself as that expert in the industry.

And if you have products you wanna put on Amazon, uh he’s you know, he’s, uh, he’s built quite a reputation in that industry. Uh, and he says he makes a lot more money by doing deals than he does by sponsorship, uh, deals for his, um, his business that helps get companies on Amazon. And I, and I think one thing too about, you know, the sponsorship model and the reason why we had so much success, I mean, we signed over a $10,000 deal for our first sponsor with 400 total downloads.

So, you know, we, and that was with four episodes. So maybe roughly a hundred people listening to our show, which I understand in the. You know, I’ve been in the podcast space long enough to understand that that’s incredible for the first four episodes anyway, to have a, you know, roughly a hundred people listen to each episode.

But what I learned from that first fishing show [00:23:00] was the power of a niche topic in the second show. And the only reason I sold the first show is because similar to what you just said, Andrew, my partner on that was a fishing guide. And so he was making a slew of money, uh, from booking gigs off of that show, but I was making no dollars.

And then when the time came for a potential, you know, partner or sponsorship opportunity, he wasn’t really interested. And that’s why I was like, well, you gotta buy the show cuz I’m doing all of it for free and you’re making a killing. And so the second show we designed it that. To make money to be a business.

And, um, and so we, I understood really quickly the power of that niche audience in the hard work it took to, to do that, to make that decision to say, Hey, I’m just gonna focus on, you know, this very slim fishing area. But with that, I was able to go pitch my niche and the power of the community over pitching my [00:24:00] numbers.

And I think a lot. And, and it’s a big myth that you can’t make money with a small podcast. I mean, I help a lot of content creators who have very small audiences make a lot of money. I have one lady, she has 500 downloads. Perhaps I’ve been doing her podcasts for five years, but has such a powerful niche that she gets paid a thousand dollars an episode by one sponsor.

And so it’s really kind of diving in there do and doing the hard thing. The easy thing is to be everything to everyone and try to be the next Joe Rogan, which I will argue that he has a niche. I won’t get into it, but. That’s like the, the, like the, the easy thing, the hard thing is to say, okay, who am I gonna talk to?

How am I gonna create this content direct this content? And then overall get paid from it. And so I’ve been very successful with sponsorships, however, it’s not very scalable. And that’s what we ran into after, you know, doing this for a couple of years where like the money’s good, like we’re making good money, but how do we scale this?

You know, as a [00:25:00] business. And that’s where, you know, stacking these opportunities, uh, have really helped us with sponsorship. And we did now we’re doing this membership and we, you know, pull from that audience of podcast listeners. Now they’ve become members and we’re providing additional content every week for them.

And now we’re gonna work on. Our affiliate marketing stuff through Amazon live. And then eventually once we get to a place where we’re super comfortable, we’re going to, you know, launch product and, and do all that kind of fun stuff. So I think it’s all about stacking it for me, man. I’ve just been like, whatever I gotta do punch my own time clock and not someone else’s, but it’s been a lot of fun.

Yeah. So, you know, you bring up niches and, and this is something that both as a guest or a podcaster, I, I think people should focus more on. And so I find people tend to be too broad and it’s really hard to break in there. Right. And so I see this a lot. So, so take, take a, an expert on podcast, A lot of them will say like, oh, I’m a coach.

Maybe I’m a business [00:26:00] coach. Maybe I’m a, a weight loss coach, that sort of thing. Well, there are probably millions of people out there who consider themselves a, a business coach. Right. And so why would anyone listen to you as a business coach? So I tell people to, to kind of niche down, right? Which is.

Maybe you’re a business coach for lawyers. Maybe you’re a business coach for doctors starting in their own practice. Right. That sort of thing. So I’d, I’d really try to narrow that down. Both being a guest on shows, as well as being a podcast, right. If you had just started a general podcast, it would’ve been very difficult to scale up and get an audience for it.

You picked a niche and then you even kind of picked a kind of a geo level on top of that, right. A specific geography, which can make it a lot easier. Yes. You’re, you’re never gonna have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of downloads, but the people listening will really, really care about it. And they’ll be really dedicated to the topic I was talking to one person.

He has a business show gets, I [00:27:00] don’t know, a few thousand downloads per episode. It, it it’s a good show, but then he has one that’s about, and I don’t know the specific topic, but it was like, it was about not Ford cars. Um, But a specific Ford car from a specific decade. So it’s like sixties or seventies, some type of, you know, for car that people just, you know, the 400 or 500 people out there that own them, they’re collectors.

They love it. And like every single one of them listens to his show. Right. So he said he actually does better on that show from an audience participation and sponsorship and involvement perspective than he does on his business show, which is broader, even though that has more downloads per episode. So even though it’s broader, so, you know, on both sides, both as a guest and as a podcaster, I, I suggest to people to, to kind of tighten that niche.

If you will, don’t be too broad, um, that you’re competing, that, that you’re a small fish in a big sea, right? You wanna be a big fish in a small pond? Andrew, I think [00:28:00] that’s such a strong point. And I think in many respect. Podcasters were the first micro influencers. You know, we hear the term now micro influencer.

When we talk about a social media influencer that doesn’t have, um, millions of followers, but may have thousands of followers, but they’re very targeted in focused. And that’s how podcasting has been, you know, for the last 14 years, um, where there’s so many niche podcasts and many times, um, those niche podcasts, as you just pointed out are much more engaged.

And if you, if you have a particular niche you’re interested in, and you’re trying to reach that audience as a guest, you might do better being a guest on, on 10 podcasts that have a thousand listeners each versus one podcast that’s broader with 10,000 listeners, right? You’ll make more of an impact with those niche targeted sort of micro influencer podcasts.

In my opinion, absolutely. [00:29:00] And you know, my podcast about domain names is, is a good example, right? It gets about 1500 to 2000 downloads per episode. If you wanna talk about domain names though, and your audience’s, you know, people in the domain name, world, it’s going to be a lot more effective than going on another show that’s broader that has, you know, 25,000 downloads per episode.

And so really kind of focusing there. I also tell people when you get an opportunity to be a guest on a show, don’t look so much at, uh, well, a lot of people get hung up with, you know, how big is this show? How many downloads does it get? Um, I look at it, I look at each podcast appearance as an opportunity, right?

So as long as there’s somewhat of a fit, it’s an opportunity to go on. If nothing else you’re getting good practice. I, I know a lot of people aren’t necessarily comfortable, um, being a guest on a podcast, being interview. And the nice thing about podcasts is compared to all other media, uh, or most other media, it’s a lot less risky, right?

[00:30:00] So compared to even radio, which is live, if you mess up it it’s out there, right. Or TV where people are looking at you and it’s live, or, or even public speaking, I think a lot of people that aren’t comfortable with public speaking would do well to start a podcast or be a guest on a podcast to really improve their skills and get more comfortable with it.

And then maybe you will feel more comfortable with public speaking or going on some of these, these live shows in the future. Yeah. I had a question for both you, Andrew and Billy about that, um, you know, podcast, guests, speakers. Do you have some tips for them? Like, you know, what, what makes a good speaker, you know, is it somebody who’s quick to the point or is it, is there something, is there some advice that you could give speakers who.

Talk on podcasts or even in clubhouse who come up on the stage or they do a show like this, is there any particular, I don’t know, tips and tricks for them. [00:31:00] Yeah. Uh, you know, I I’d be interested actually first, Billy, if you talk about what, what you, I assume you have guests on your show here. So, um, in that case, what, what are you kind of looking for in the interviewees?

And this is a, this is a great question. And I, I think what I’m, you know, what I’m mostly looking for. If people wanna come on my guess is like, what value do they have to bring to my audience? And, you know, I mean, that’s hopefully for all of us podcasters, that’s what our, you know, one of our objectives is, is to find some qualified people to talk about the subject matter.

You know, once again, I’m, I’m in, I’m totally focused on niche markets. So I’m not really just interested in, Hey, tell me your life story from the time you’re born until now, I’m really interested in learning a, a specific topic. And so we, we kind of vet our. You know, guest by planning our episodes and saying, you know, for us anyway, it’s through the fishing season.

So right now as flounder season in North Carolina. So our whole main focus for this [00:32:00] month is all about flounder fishing, kind of catch more fish more often and getting those tips, tricks and strategies. And I would say like on the flip side is being a guest. You know, one thing is to qualify that podcast, not by numbers, but can you literally bring value to their audience?

You know, I get invited, you know, I share a name, Billy Thorpe with Australian rockstar who died in 1997 or 2007 or whatever. I get invited to more Australian podcasts than you can shake a stick at because it’s all click bait. And I just turn those down. Sure. I can be on a podcast in Australia every day of the week, all day long.

But I just know it’s not going to bring their audience any value to, for me to be on a music podcast. Uh, even though I’m a musician and I can talk about it, it’s just not a good fit. And so, um, I think that’s the thing too, like really, as a, as a guest, like make sure that you can really bring some true value and you know, [00:33:00] what I, you know, from, from the guest side or, or the host side, I’m looking for people who want to collaborate and this be more of a collaboration episode, more than just, uh, Hey, let me ask you a bunch of questions.

So that’s, that’s kind of what I’m after as well is I want it to be a great episode, but I don’t want it to just be like, all right. Well, tell me about last week. Okay. Well, tell me about your new book. Okay. Well not tell me about the, you know, it’s like, to me that is boring content. I want it to be more conversational.

So anyway, I’ve probably rambled on too long back to you. Yeah, no, I, I think each podcast is different. And, um, so it’s really interesting to kind of hear, I think, well, first of all, some podcasters are, are better interviewers than others and, you know, some have a different way of doing it. Some people want more of a conversation.

Some people want people to talk and, and tight soundbites. And so, you know, the best thing you can do before going on a show is listen to an episode or two and get a fuel for it. Um, you know, I’d say as a guest, uh, you know, most of, most [00:34:00] of my guests on the domain name wire podcast, I’ve been, uh, really good about kind of call reading the room, reading me as the interviewer.

Right. And so occasionally you’ll get someone who rambles on for five or six minutes and they aren’t, you know, they’re kind of jumping around from topic to topic. The, a good interviewer is just kind of giving prompts. Right. So they’re maybe asking a question or saying, tell me more about that, that sort of thing.

And then you, as the guest are talking most of the time, I I’ve been a guest on some podcasts where the host ends up speaking 80% of the time. Right. They, for some reason they wanna like show their audience how, how much they know about this topic. Right. So I question, why did they invite me on to, to, to be a guest anyway?

Um, so I think, you know, there’s a little bit of, of understanding that I I’d also say as a guest sometimes before I go up on a show, I. You know, what do you as a host? What, what, what do you wanna get out of this? Um, cuz I wanna make sure I’m prepared for it. And I always prepare my guess by [00:35:00] giving kind of a short outline, four or five bullet points.

So not necessarily the specific questions, but Hey, we’re gonna talk about this, this and this. Um, so that they’re prepared so that they’re more comfortable and, and kind of understand the flow of things. Can I ask that? Yeah, that makes complete, you know, I, I, I love that format. Yeah. Chris, let’s, let’s get to you.

What is your question or comment? So just on what’s a great speaker. I think obviously everything that was just said about understanding the dynamics of what’s going on and what’s ex is expected, is really important. And um, I had one that I had on, uh, I, I host a podcast too and, and uh, the guest that I had on, on Tuesday.

He said exactly that he, he talked about how he likes it when it’s more of a natural conversation, a natural flow. And he had said that he had several times been on podcasts where it was so scripted and it was [00:36:00] hard. Like he was actually trying to break away from the scriptedness of the podcast and the host wouldn’t let him, and he just felt that it was too kind of stale and awkward.

So I think a lot of it, you know, if people are passionate and have knowledge about what they do asking the right questions will make them a good speaker to some extent. Um, the other thing that I, that I do actually with, with our guests is that, uh, we don’t schedule anything, uh, with anybody with less than two or three weeks notice.

And that is because in between when they’re scheduled and when we actually have them on a guest, we send them a series of five short videos. Where I walk through some of the expectations of the podcast, as well as how they can be prepared, including how to set up for li best lighting and different things like that.

Because for some people, it’s the first time [00:37:00] most of the ones I have on have been on podcasts before, but in case they have not, or, or it’s their first time, and they’re a little unsure how to act on camera and so forth. Um, we make it easy for them. We, we, you know, give all the tips we can to, to help them out, to shine, essentially when they’re on.

So that’s what I want to share. I think that it’s, it’s great to kind of set those expectations. And, um, you know, I, I think a lot of that onus is on, on us as podcasters on, on you as podcasters to kind of heavier people prepared. You also brought up the video, right? Being on camera before the pandemic, almost every podcast was, there was no video involved.

Right. And then once everyone started using zoom and these other things, there’s now a lot of video. And one of the first questions I have for people when I’m going on a show is, is there video or not? And it’s not, cuz I won’t do it. If there’s video, it’s just, I need to prepare differently. Right. I need to set my camera up.

I need to, I need to comb my hair. You know, I need, need [00:38:00] to put a shirt on, you know, stuff like that. So it’s really changed a lot of the dynamic, uh, around podcasts.

All right. So a question. For both of you. So I’ve got my podcast and you know, I’m gonna use us for an example, Serial Entrepreneur Club. We have 74 podcasts posted. We used, I’m asking for advice I’m is what I’m getting at. So we used Lipsen right. It’s a platform, right? To get us out to all the various platforms.

Now we’re out. Like, how do we get awareness drive that awareness? Um, so we can get more downloads. We’ve thought about various things, you know, we’ve thought about running Google ads. We’ve thought about running ads on the various podcasts, but we’re very interested, um, to get both of your advice, how do we get more of the right [00:39:00] people there?

Thank you. So I’ll, I’ll jump on that first with, with a few ideas. So, first of all, we talked about being a guest on, on other podcasts. Again, I think that’s the number one way, but of course that’s not as scalable, right. As just buying ads or something like that. Uh, but the other thing to do is to leverage your guests here.

And so this is something we actually, um, when, when guests create profiles on our platform, we ask them, what will you do to help promote the show after you’re on it? And so you really need to leverage them to promote the show that they’re on afterward and you can make that easy for them. So obviously before this clubhouse session today, you guys did a great job.

Uh, providing me with things that I could use to promote the actual clubhouse session. So graphics that we can use, you know, I posted it to Twitter where I’ve got 35,000 or so people following, you know, I posted it again today, when I’m on it. Now, after this, when you actually publish, it is another opportunity to do [00:40:00] that.

Like, Hey Andrew, we’re now published. Um, here’s a link to it. Here’s a graphic, that sort of thing so that anyone can listen to it. So you really wanna leverage those people that you have on your show. And I will say that some of the guests, uh, that a lot of people feel like, Hey, if I get this big name guest on the show, they’re gonna do a lot to promote it.

They have a bigger audience that I’ll be valuable. A lot of times though, the guests that say aren’t as well known will do more to promote the. Um, and you can actually find, find people that do a good job of this and invite them on your show. Right? And so the, the reason we have people put this on our profile now, podcast is that I was talking to a podcaster at south, by Southwest many years ago.

And he said, you know, Andrew, all these people pitch to be on my show and they tell me what’s in it for them. They never tell me what’s in it for me. How can they help me grow my show? And I was like, oh, that’s really interesting. So, you know, maybe they have an email list that they’ll include, uh, a link to the show and hopefully [00:41:00] they’ll push it out to social media.

Right. That’s one of the easiest things they can do. Um, but really try to try to leverage your guests as well, to grow the show as far as advertising on, on Google and such. There’s some value there. Uh, the challenge of course, again, is that a lot of people that see it are not. They’re not podcast listeners.

Right? So a, a lot of your money is, is going to waste there. And it’s challenging as a podcaster because discoverability for podcasts, it sucks. Right? I mean, I, if you’re an apple podcast searching, they’re really only searching on the title of. Your podcast name, not even a show. And what’s in your, kind of up about like your, who, who it’s by.

So there’s no, you know, when we write a blog, post Googles, slurs it up, and if people are searching for some of the keywords in there, they can find your content. Most podcast platforms don’t have that as far as the apps are concerned. So it is frustrating. And I hear from so many people who are frustrated about growing our [00:42:00] show, um, but I will say, you know, going on other shows.

So John Lee Dumas is entrepreneur on fire, very popular podcast. He sets aside time to be on 20 podcasts every month as a guest, he said, Hey, it’s just putting in my reps here as far as getting out there and continuing to spread the word, even though he is one of the most popular podcasts in the world.

That’s great. Um, Paige you’ve, uh, come on stage. Do you have any tips or tricks? Or ideas to help, um, potentially new podcasters or speakers on podcasts? Uh, no, I appreciated the opportunity always to talk to you guys on Friday, Andrew, I think I was just a, uh, a speaker on a, a, a, a composite podcast of yours and I’s right.

Appreciated how you pivoted kind of to do this new venture while you were doing your regular blog. [00:43:00] And I, I really thought it made sense. I guess I’m thinking about my online show that I do the domain show and thinking it more of like a three day podcast. And I like what you guys were talking about with the ability to let the speaker promote themselves.

And then co-promote. And I think one of the things that the platform I use does is it lets the speakers on the three day podcast, I guess, um, gather their own leads from some type of call to action. As opposed to always having to go through me. I feel like I wanted to let ’em know that they could direct people to a special offer, a special signup list, a funnel or whatever they wanted to call it.

And that it wasn’t always gonna have to go through me. It’s kind of an incentive to want to participate. So that’s probably the only thing I thought might help everybody is you kind of build that trust relationship by not always extracting, you know, every component [00:44:00] of value, you know, offer them something like you can build your own, add to your own list directly.

You don’t have to go through me or get the people that sign up through me.

Yeah. Great. Uh, great page earlier, I talked about this gentleman who runs a niche podcast norm Forar. So I just texted him and he, he came on stage here. And norm you, you had the experience of running two types of podcasts. Can you just explain, uh, what they were and. And why you sort of focused on one versus the other.

Yeah. Sure. Thanks Colin. So the one podcast is an E eCom based, primarily an Amazon based podcast. Uh, a little bit tougher. It’s a niche audience, but what I find is it’s a highly engaged audience. So what we’ve done, uh, to help promote and help to spread the word is we’ve created a community. We spent a lot of time, a lot of [00:45:00] effort and.

On building up, uh, Facebook groups, uh, our, our YouTube channel and we are constantly engaging. So right now we’ve got about 3000 people in the group, not a huge group, 3000 people, and we’ve got over an 80% engagement rate. Then it’s just people that are constantly talking. We run, uh, something that’s very unique.

So again, in this niche, we had to become unique. One of the things that we did is I brought my son in, uh, and we kind of go back and forth. I’m the old guy, he’s the millennial. I cut him up. He takes it. And, um, you know, we kind of just joke around while our guests are coming on, it’s live, we make blunders.

It’s not a big deal. Uh, and then at the end we have something called the wheel of Kelsey and the wheel of Kelsey is any of our guests in the, in the, in the hot seat, they’ll provide either consultation or services or something that are relating to [00:46:00] our. Online listeners that help them become a better online business person.

So that’s that one it’s very, um, it’s very tough. We’re, we’re, we’re trying to target Amazon sellers or e-comm sellers. Uh, and what we’re finding if we pigeon hold Amazon, which kept us in a very specific niche, we also are trying to spread out to bride our horizons, uh, like to e-com because, you know, it’s just a much big, broader audience.

How we combined everything together is we called it a micro brandand, the rise of the micro brands. And so that kind of fused everybody together to listen. And that’s what we’ve been doing. Our. Website, we’ve put time, money and high quality, very high quality, uh, content on the website. And, um, it’s, it’s not just, [00:47:00] uh, the, uh, transcriptions it’s quality, uh, content and guest blogs.

So most of our guests that come on, they write an article and they’ll post it. And it’s a 1500 to 2,500 word article, all SEO optimized. Now the other one, I love the other one, but it no longer is going on right now. This one was live. The other one was a prerecorded, uh, uh, epi, uh, podcast called. I know this guy and we wanted to come out of the doors, very unique with this, and I think we achieved.

It’s really time ran out for us and I’m hoping to bring it back as a live version, but the reason why, uh, we cut it back is the cost of the podcast. It co it took seven hours of editing per podcast, uh, uh, lunch with norms, the Amazon one, which is just live. We do it. It’s done. We repurpose a heck of a lot of content, but the it’s over once [00:48:00] it’s done this one, oh my gosh, seven hours of editing, then you’re promoting it.

Um, and our unique selling, I guess you call it unique selling proposition was we had the guest get the gas. So I, I know this guy and what it is is we wanted to talk about failure. We wanted to talk about or background failure and success. And it was the average individual. We started out with five lines and each one of these five lines where people, I knew.

And they, uh, would at like at the end of the podcast, I would say, uh, there’s only one question I have left. Do you know, uh, do you know a guy and then they would go and it spread off. I, you wouldn’t believe the people that came onto this podcast. Like it was entrepreneurs. It was, um, crazy. Colin knows he served the podcast before, but, um, it was so [00:49:00] fun to do.

And, uh, I would love to get going with it, but it was a whole different crowd and it could expand to a much way more broader crowd and it become, could become more viral depending who was on. I know, um, Uh, the, um, host of, uh, hotels, impossible came on, then Leo Rossi came on. Then I had, uh, the real Donny Broco on from the FBI guy that turned, uh, the banana family, uh, in and anyways, he was on and they were just talking about some crazy, crazy stories.

People want to hear that stuff. But what surprised me about this is people also wanted to hear about the common person and that’s what was really unique. I’d get comments coming in saying, you know, oh, you gotta tell me more about this person or that person. And these are people that nobody knew. And what was interesting is we found out that there’s a common element.

There’s always people that have [00:50:00] a great backstory something’s happened. They’ve always had, uh, uh, um, a huge failure and they’ve always had a huge success and they all know somebody. So anyways, those are the podcasts that we’ve had and they were all just marketed to different audiences in different ways.

I hope I answered the question. No, AB absolutely. And, and I have a question for you and Andrew, maybe Chris or Paige, uh, getting speakers. You talked about this idea of getting speakers and we’ve been fortunate on the Serial Entrepreneur Club and that we’ve had, um, be Harnish Jack Daley. Um, we had, uh, Jeffrey Moore who wrote his, you’ve had Andrew Allman.

I mean, we’ve had Andrew Allman. That’s right. Has such good. We’ve had such good speakers and it’s been relatively easy, you know, reaching out to them or I’ve had contacts with them or somebody knew them and they were interested in, you know, I think they’re interested in getting on clubhouse. They hear about this new clubhouse and whatnot.

Um, but how do you get speakers starting with [00:51:00] you, Andrew? I know you’ve got a service, so hopefully we’ll talk about that as well, but how do you get quality speakers for your podcast? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, again, I created podcast and in part to figure that out right. Uh, or to, to make it easier.

Um, and, and it helps a lot, but, you know, I mean, there’s, there, there’s a manual side. And even if someone say pitches me through podcast,, you know, then there’s some evaluation that takes place. So maybe I can talk a little bit about that. It’s like, okay, is this person going to add a lot of value to my show?

Are they comfortable speaking? Right. So I want to go listen to. Another podcast they’ve been on. If they haven’t been on another podcast, I’m pretty concerned as well. So I wanna basically, may, maybe there’s a YouTube video out there. Um, something where I can see kind of the, the person talking and, and you know, what, what are they like?

Are they good at answering questions? If you’re, if you’re looking for people out there and, and maybe beyond a service, even, you know, there’s Googling for the [00:52:00] topic, there’s also, you know, have you heard the person on another podcast you listen to, right? So presumably you listen to other podcasts in a similar niche to yours, and that’s an opportunity to kind of find guests there.

There are even some podcast search engines where you can search for the guests. Um, and certain topics and then C who’s, I guess, on those shows, I’d also suggest inviting people on your show that host their own podcast in a similar topic or a topic you’re interested in and keep in mind that those people, a, since they’re a host, they’re they know what they’re doing, they’ll be good at it.

B hopefully they’ll mention it to their podcast audience. Right. Maybe they’ll even invite you to, to come on to, to their show. So those are just some, some recommendations for, for how to do it.

Yeah. One of the things that we’ve, uh, done and, and exactly like Andrew said, you’ve gotta make sure that who you’re reaching out to, um, You wanna make sure [00:53:00] that it’s not somebody that’s timid, you know, during an interview. And it depends on the style of podcast. We have the interview style podcast, very casual, uh, you know, what will this person fit into our podcast?

So one of the things we do is if I get a note for the, for the eCommerce side of things, I will go and I will scour events. And if I’m attending an event and I thought somebody was a great speaker, I’ll go up to them and ask them. But if, uh, like just recently, I sent my son three event, um, sheets that are coming up, uh, traffic and conversion is one, it’s a huge, huge, huge, uh, event.

I haven’t heard of a bunch of the people that are on there. Uh, we have an assistant that goes out there and does all the outreach. So. Go they’ll research and then they’ll go and, and hit up that person. The other thing that we do, which kind of sounds crazy, but we find the person on LinkedIn and we’ve found some major people [00:54:00] on LinkedIn that have that my son’s just contacted and they actually responded and came onto the podcast, which really surprised me, like when he started talking about some of these guests, really, I didn’t think I didn’t, like we told me, like, ran Fishkin was one guy.

He’s the guy that started MAs I’m in the econ business. I’m an SEO guy, all of a sudden this guy’s coming on and I’m going, wow, how did you even get hold of LinkedIn? You know? And you know, they got to build a relationship and now we can call him or, you know, do like we could reach out to him and say, Hey, do you have any people that you could recommend our way?

So that’s primarily what we’re doing. Uh, but we. We went and we decided that we were going to just go and hire somebody to outsource for outreach, put together a high quality personalized email, not just a form letter and make it look like, you know, we really want them on the podcast. [00:55:00] That’s how we do it.

You brought up something there that, uh, is a great idea. I hear a lot of podcasters. Tell me about, and that is at the end of their interview, ask the person, Hey, can you recommend one or two people that you think can make a great guest for this show? Um, I think that’s a fantastic idea. Uh, and then, you know, another thing you brought up is just, you know, the surprise that some of these people respond when you have a podcast.

Uh, it’s fantastic. Cuz you’re not reaching out saying, Hey, ran. I’d like to pick your brain for 30 minutes. You’re saying, Hey, ran. I’d like to give you the op I’d like to introduce you to my audience. Right. And I, I know Norman, you came on a, a little later. I actually brought up Rand earlier, cuz it’s a big part of how he grows his business is, is going on podcast.

And so there are a lot of people that will be interested in doing it cuz you’re you’re doing something for them. You’re not just asking them to do something for you. So those are some fantastic ideas. Yeah. I know. I actually, um, reached out to [00:56:00] Jeffrey Moore. About three years ago when I was doing an article for circle ID and connected with him on LinkedIn.

And when we started doing this show, I, I, I reached out to him again and he actually responded and said, look, I don’t want to go on any other social media platforms. And, uh, then three months later he pings me and says, Hey, I hear about this clubhouse and whatnot. And are you still doing that show? And I said, yeah, I’m I am.

And would you like to come on and, and talk about it? And it was, uh, it was a really fun show and, uh, you know, we learned a lot, uh, and to, to have somebody like that on was so cool because, you know, I’d read his books in the nineties and they’d been the basis of a lot of my theories around entrepreneurship and startups.

And it was just a very cool thing. So LinkedIn, you know, has been somewhat effective. I believe it’s re it’s effectiveness is, is slowly dropping or dying because of all the, the spam that’s on it. [00:57:00] But, um, it has been a useful tool, you know, I’m, I’m always amazed at the people that give their time to be guests on shows.

I, you know, it’s funny on podcast Sometimes I’ll people reach out and they’re like, Hey, can we jump on a call so we can talk about how this works? And I tell them, no, I, I, you know, I let’s do it over email. Right. I don’t do kind of phone consultations on that. But at one point I got an email from, uh, I don’t know how old everyone here is, but you remember wo there it is from the nineties, uh, group called tag team.

And it was one of the guys from that at group he’s in a new Geico commercial. And he reached out and he is like, Hey, can we jump on the phone so we can talk about this? I was like, absolutely. I’d love to chat with you. So, you know, it’s just fun. The, some, some of the people that you can meet, some of, kind of your childhood heroes and, and that sort of thing through podcasting, Andrew I’ve always liked your style.

Uh, when it comes to podcasts, you listen very well. You come back with. Thoughtful comments. Do you have any [00:58:00] tips or tricks you could share for moderators of clubhouse sessions or moderators of, of, uh, these podcasts? Yeah, I mean, I, I think getting back to something I said earlier, you know, you’re, you’re obviously, you know, thinking about podcast and a guest, right?

If I have you on co is cuz people wanna hear you, right? I mean, they, they know who I am. They wanna, they want me to ask, uh, questions, but they wanna hear you. And so, you know, really think about how much you’re talking. And as I’d say, as the host, you should be talking 10 to 20% of the time, maybe. Um, certainly not more than half, unless, you know, it’s a, Hey, we’re retelling a story together or something like that.

Or, you know, but most of the time I’d say your role as a host is to, or as the interviewer is just to give prompt. It’s just to give prompts, ask questions, that sort of thing, that will get the person talking. So obviously you wanna avoid a lot of closed ended questions that can be yes or no. Um, and, and you do wanna [00:59:00] make sure that your guest is prepared, you know, you know, in, in some types of podcasts yes.

They need to be, we don’t want it to be scripted for sure. But if I’m gonna ask you for data or something like that, that you might have to look up, you need to know ahead of time. Right. So I always tell people if there’s something specific that I’m gonna ask about, that’s not, not an opinion or something, they might not know off the top of their head.

Um, so that they’re prepared for the show. If you listen to the good. Say NPR interviews or, or any of those kind of long format podcast interviews? Um, 30 to 60 minutes. Uh, there’s the, the New York times guys. Well, um, I’ll look up his name while we’re, while we’re here that, you know, it just, doesn’t fantastic job interviewing.

I think it’s Ezra, Ezra recline. Um, yeah, Ezra Kline. If you listen to some of those, you’ll just kind of get a good idea of what your role is as an interviewer. And you are not the star when you’re interviewing right. It’s [01:00:00] Colin or Jeff or Michele, um, or, or norm. So, um, I think that’s just kind of a way to keep in mind, but in your head, you should have kind of a, an idea of how this is going to flow, right?

Because you don’t want to get stuck in a spot where you’re like, oh, I don’t know what to ask next. Now the nice thing about a podcast, maybe not a clubhouse, but a podcast is that, you know, you can edit it if you mess up too. So that’s a nice side to it. And I think that’s what makes clubhouse a little different.

You’ve got that live, you know, sort of audience and feeling to it. And anything can happen in a show by the way you were the star today. Andrew, thank you very much. A lot of wise advice. And I know that, you know, Michele and I will use that to promote this podcast and to promote the book, start scale, exit repeat, uh, that’s a book that I’ve been working on for a number of years and finally signed a publishing deal with Forbes advantage about a year ago.

And we’re, um, our first draft be ready in [01:01:00] October. So next week we are gonna be talking about tips and tricks for trade shows. And Andrew, you’re gonna find this interesting last night I called my son and asked him how school was going, because this is he’s going into third year, third year. This is up in Canada and he’s never actually gone into a classroom until, until, uh, the day after labor day.

So this is his first time going into a classroom. And I asked him, well, where are you sitting in that classroom? And he said, I’m sitting not only in the front row, I’m sitting closest to the professor. And I’ve often said to him, I said, a very small decision in your life can be simply where do I sit in a classroom?

Because you’re gonna surround yourself with people who are really serious about that topic. And Andrew, you may have seen this, that Jeff and I and Michele have done this, but there is not a trade show that went by where we didn’t sit in the front row. And more often than not, the speaker up in the [01:02:00] show would mention one of us.

And we boarded T-shirts, that’s one of the tips and tricks we’re gonna talk about next week, next week, it’s all about trade shows and how to really kill it. Right, Jeff, at a trade show, how to really make an impact without spending a lot of money. Yep. Should be a good, uh, conversation, especially now that people are back going to, uh, IRL events and, um, may need to sharpen up on some of their, uh, trade show, tips and hacks.

That is gonna be a great episode because if anyone has taught me lessons about how to do that, it’s, it’s the three of you from, from conferences. And so, uh, I would recommend anyone who’s interested in listening to that next week. All right, great. It’s been a great show. I’m definitely following you Andrew now on clubhouse, anybody in the audience here, uh, if you haven’t already done.

So he’s a great speaker and we look forward to seeing you more and more on clubhouse. Thanks everyone. Thanks, Andrew. [01:03:00] Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Be well and have a great weekend. Uh, just to note, follow the website and you’ll be able to see a, uh, a blog post by Mimi right here on, uh, below the stage, as well as the recording.

Uh, we’ll put in there notes to the websites and notable that Andrew mentioned as well as his own. So thank you and take care.


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